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GGZ developer meeting log
2000-12-30 2:08 +0100
note: the bold name does indicate the player who has logged via a core client.

GNU Gaming Zone 0.0.4
Ready for connection...
Logging In
Connected: Server running on jzaun.com
Logged In
--> Room
josef enters the room.
Now in room NetSpades - Example
jzaun:  Hey josef :-)
perdig:  Hello josef
josef:  hello, good evening everyone
josef:  new people here? Highlander?
jzaun:  nope... Grubby is back though :-)
josef:  YEAH :-)
josef:  grubby tell Justin that this is a good thing
perdig:  Justin, is the grubby code at the CVS?
josef:  ??
jzaun:  jzaun, not Justin
josef:  it is in the utils module
jzaun:  perdig, yes and no....
jzaun:  the old code is in the utils module
josef:  grubby tell jzaun that this is a very very good thing
jzaun:  the new code will be in the FE directory as its useing ggzcore
perdig:  Ah, ok
josef:  dont work
jzaun:  josef: his name is Highlander :-)
josef:  dam :-)
jzaun:  highlander tall josed Hey, whats up?
perdig:  BTW, what's agrue ?
josef:  typo!
jzaun:  highlander tell josed Hey, whats up?
jzaun:  highlander tell josef Hey, whats up?
jzaun:  There we go... You kinda have to be able to type :-)
josef:  Btw. I am logging the chat for some people, just to inform you
jzaun:  agure is an old, 0.0.1 program
perdig:  It is used to test the server?
Highlander:  I've been instructed to log this room to file. This notice is to allow anyone not wishing to be logged to leave this room.
jzaun:  perdig, yes... it spued randoms crap and changed rooms...
jzaun:  we used it to load test the server... we have 75 going at once at one point
perdig:  Then the server crashed?
jzaun:  no... then my puter came to a crawl... we ate up the 56K connection
josef:  The persons are: Sebastian Roth (who wishes to take over German translation), and Richard Stallman who wants to check whether to add GGZ to the GNU software directory. He said I should contact the developers - *lol* - so here I am...
jzaun:  hehe.. unfortunatly Brent and Rich arn't here...
jzaun:  and is Sebastian coming online?
josef:  Yes. But the conditions are that everything is Free Software. Seems to be (GPL).
perdig:  Doing that we are giving the rights to the FSF?
josef:  Sebastian doesn't have time today, but another day most certainly.
perdig:  Not that I'm against it... I was just curious... :)
josef:  The Copyright remains where it is of course- it is just a "label" to call it GNU software
jzaun:  josef: all the code in CVS is GPLed as far as I know... at least the server/client is
josef:  cool thing
perdig:  But if some game that is not GPL has support for ggz?
jzaun:  Thats ok... they arn't linked, they are a seperate application.
jzaun:  adn ggzcore is LGPLed
jzaun:  so no GPL can link to it
jzaun:  s/no/non
perdig:  Cool... but the ggz.[ch] files on the server directory, used by the game servers... are they LGPLed?
perdig:  They aren't... so in this case a non-free game should have to wait until we have ggzmod?
jzaun:  no, GPLed... but the ggzservercore should be LGPLed
josef:  Personally, I am a GPL fanatic and hate LGPL.
jzaun:  J: as am I, but to allow for more games.. we LGPLed the libs used to make them with.
jzaun:  I wouldn't mind a company makeing a for sale only game work with GGZ... just get us out there more, and gets the free software movement a leg up.
jzaun:  Once its in use, then we can persward them to move to a GPL licence :-)
josef:  I support this statement officially (tm).
jzaun:  :)
perdig:  Well, I'm totally in favor of putting a link to the game in the GNU page (in fact, we already uses GNU's name)
perdig:  But I think that we should tell Brent and Rich about that
josef:  mailto:ggz-dev
jzaun:  As for Richard... I wouldn't mind if he cam by one night and gave his opinion :-)
josef:  hope he will :-)
jzaun:  Brent and Rich are thinking along the same lines I am... at least they were when we started GGZ :-)
jzaun:  we had a good 3-4 hour talk about licences.
perdig:  Brent is busy w/ that thesis work... but what about Rich? He is out of town or something, right?
josef:  What I've read some months ago - Brent and Rich were meeting in a pub, drinking a beer, became drunken and had weird thoughts about this.
jzaun:  The way its set up... GGZ is and will remain free (GPLed) the libs to make game are and will stay free (LGPLed) but game writers can do as they like....
jzaun:  j:close but not quite...
jzaun:  Brent and a friend at collage came up with NetSpades. Bredt wanted to expand to other game... I got NetSpades and met Brent... agree with the more games idea. Brent met Rich on SourceForge some months later, Then he told be a little after that. I joined up and there were the three of us working alone for about 2-3 months. then others started in :-)
perdig:  Beautiful story... :)
josef:  You're all in Pennsilvania?
jzaun:  nope.
perdig:  But the "got drunken in a pub" is better
jzaun:  I'm in PA, Brent and rich live in 2 other states... can't remember where at the moment
jzaun:  None of us have met before... That I'm aware of
jzaun:  You should all fly to PA for a weeke=nd :-)
josef:  I've never been outside Europe yet
perdig:  I probably will go to Miami in January... how far is it from PA?
jzaun:  I've been to Europe... I liked it alot
josef:  where?
jzaun:  Miami is about 18hours in a car
jzaun:  Germany..
josef:  Berlin?
jzaun:  Andrsk. 24
jzaun:  3503g Marbug
jzaun:  Germany
jzaun:  To be exact :-)
josef:  Ah yes... I remember that discussion. Seems I am getting old.
jzaun:  as am I... 23 now :-( Much to old
josef:  Perdig: Where exactly in Miami? I once knew a girl from North Miami Beach, 33160.
perdig:  I really don't know...
jzaun:  Anyone know if Rich is coming tonight?
perdig:  I should be taking the "go to miami, Orlando, visit Disney World, go back to miami, buy cheap electronics, return to brazil" kind of trip
josef:  Or Disneyland? Or Everglades?
josef:  Haven't heard from Rich a while.
jzaun:  highlander have you seen rgade
perdig:  Jz: I think not... I remember he saying in the last meeting that that would be his last meeting this year
jzaun:  he was online 3 days ago...
jzaun:  Ahh thats right :-(
josef:  Has highlander said something in the Gtk+ client?
jzaun:  9010066574140f highlander responces are privet messages...
josef:  ok
jzaun:  Hows the KDE client coming?
josef:  My plans for the next days: clean up in CVS under /src/frontend/kde (I've now added Makefile support for i18n), add the aclocal thing (don't know how to apply), and prepare a web site.
jzaun:  Have you added the table support thats been added to ggzcore?
perdig:  josef: will it use configure?
josef:  yes / yes
jzaun:  It will use configure now, cool :-)
josef:  It does now handle FTP download (for game modules), in combination with ggz-config this could be a lot of fun.
jzaun:  Was the table support hard to add to KDE? it was my first addition to ggzcore
josef:  Table support was relatively easy. Although, I think the C++ solution is a bit unclean, but it works
josef:  There are 3 configuration switches: -DUSE_SERVER -DUSE_FTP -DUSE_SERVER
jzaun:  anything we can do in ggzcore to help make C++ a little cleaner?
josef:  No, ggzcore is ok. Only the ggzcore_conf_ functions should take const char, instead of char.
perdig:  jf: Do you plan on using KParts to make KGgz embed within Konqueror?
josef:  Kparts? Let's see. For GGZ 0.0.5 I've already started kggz_embedded which takes _less less less_ resources than kparts. But let's see - I do mainly need the widget resizing and splitting/combining functionality.
josef:  E.g. for 3D games which are one the left side, and the chat on the right one, in one central widget.
josef:  But this is all future stuff and non-functional yet.
perdig:  But then the game would embed in KGGZ?
josef:  Yes, this is only possible for the KDE games, or the Gtk+ ones which use QtGtk.
perdig:  And that whole XParts stuff, that made possible to embed Mozilla on Konqueror?
perdig:  Although I don't know how it works, and even if that applies to the case... :)
josef:  Does it? Don't know.
josef:  But Konqueror and Mozilla are equal on rendering.
perdig:  There was an article on dot.kde.org about it
jzaun:  it was on /. too :-)
josef:  This would eat up the whole SourceForge CVS space, at least.
perdig:  But and how about embeding KGGZ into Konqueror? So that clicking on a ggz:// link under konqueror would transparently connect to it. (like reading a text file under Konqueror loads KEdit)
josef:  Hehe => The other way around: Konqueror is already embedded in KGGZ!
perdig:  Imagine if you could embed KGGZ in Konqueror... then the embedded Konqueror would embed a KGGZ that would embed another Konqueror that would embed another KGGZ... no, now that's just stupid
josef:  Btw. This poses the question: Is someone responsible for the ggz:// protocol? I've some suggestions.
jzaun:  What ggz://protocol?
josef:  p: Imagine a Java client of GGZ, embedded in kggz, embedded in...
jzaun:  I just made the gtk+ client recognice ggz:// as a URL for showing the Login dialog
josef:  KGGZ recognizes: ggz://central.zone/login :-)
jzaun:  I would recoment:
josef:  What about ggz://games.zone/tictactoe and the like? There are lots of possibilies.
jzaun:  ggz://user:password@server:port
perdig:  ggz://user:password@server:port/room
jzaun:  the login dialog don't have a room options....
josef:  that's what I've written to the list: The --zone option, even valid for non-GGZ games. This would bring them all to us...
perdig:  But if I'm saying the user, password, server and port, I could skip the login dialog
jzaun:  hey... anyone know is "make test" still works?
perdig:  jz: What do you mean?
jzaun:  and you would be anouneing your user/pass to the whole room
josef:  Nope. Prop > 50%.0
jzaun:  p: <=0.0.3 had a "make test" that would let you run the client without installing it
perdig:  jz: Ops, forgot about that... :)
perdig-gtk enters the room.
jzaun:  p: your in Berzil rihgt?
perdig:  jz: Yep
jzaun:  what about a Berzilian translation :-)
perdig:  What I have to do? I haven't never translated anything
jzaun:  not sure realy... josef can help you out there :-)
josef:  My thoughts were the following: A game (call it TheGame) has a server running at thegame.gov. A GGZ user sees this game in the rooms list and starts it. The client is smart and knows, that the local options for the game are $user:$password@thegame.gov:12345. It then passes the information to the game, which skips the login dialog (it already has the information), and connects to thegame.com. That's the story about.
oberon enters the room.
jzaun:  Hello Oberon :-)
jzaun:  long time no see
josef:  Gruess Gott Oberon, hey!
perdig:  jf: I don't get it... if the game is in the rooms list, it's server should be the same as the ggz server
oberon:  Cool, I see you've gotten grubby ported to the 0.0.3 chat protocol, Justin! :)
perdig-gtk leaves the room.
jzaun:  josef: That may work... but not realy needed. The ggz servers will talk to each other and handle all that for you. Kinda like IRC does it.
josef:  p: I am working at an ISP. What a hell to run 200 game servers, all at different ports... Freeciv here, Combat there, ...
jzaun:  oberon: Yup uses ggzcore... should always stay in sink now :-)
perdig:  jf: But the game servers, although all run in the same server, use only a Unix socket... no port open
oberon:  Hola
perdig:  Hello oberon
josef:  jz: This was intended for games like FreeLords which do not wish to change the network code. Of course, some features are not available then.
jzaun:  josef: If they arn't going to use the GGZ protocol... they wont work with GGZ, so whats the point?
josef:  The point might be to support them though, to have a network games launcher which becomes the standard.
perdig:  jf: Now I get what you said...
jzaun:  You would have to discuss that with Brent and Rich... not sure is a game laucher is what GGZ is supposed to be in the long run... though I see no reason no to support it, it isn't on the front burner...
perdig:  jz: Everything in the gtk frontend is i18n'ed ? Although I never had really used i18n, I'll see what I can do
josef:  Of course no long time solution, just for the _already existing_, because rewriting the whole server protocol and code would be a mess for those guys.
jzaun:  not realy... it just gets encpsulated in GGZ... ask perdig about porting... he just ported XFRisk :-)
perdig:  jf: Do you know how to translate a gtk program?
jzaun:  p: everything thats translatable is in the _() macro for gettext.
josef:  _("hello") becomes _("Hallo")
perdig:  jf: It's really easy to port... just open a "/tmp/GAMENAME.PID" unix socket instead of a normal socket
josef:  The only thing you have to do as a translator is fill in some strings to br.po.
perdig:  The server shouldn't listen to any socket... just use ggz_connect
perdig:  and wait's for some GGZ messages... and then call the appropriated ggz_ stuff
perdig:  How do I get that br.po? What I must run to get all the strings?
josef:  br.po is generated by the Makefile, if it is added to an option string.
josef:  The strings you fetch out of your mind, because you are the only one here able to speak portuguese :-)
perdig:  Hehehe... but the Makefile doesn't generate anything for ggz-gtk... I guess that it onle does that for ggz-old (that's what I understood from the /po dir in the ggz source)
josef:  Ok, but this can be added fast.
josef:  Here is an example from de.po: msgid "The ggz protocol is not implemented yet."
josef:  msgstr ""
josef:  becomes:
josef:  msgstr "Das GGZ-Protokoll wurde noch nicht implementiert."
perdig:  It must have the same size of the old string?
josef:  no. The only pitfall are edt& 135185984 arguments, which is called L10n, not i18n
josef:  Do you know any other language than English, perhaps french, so I can give you a nice example?
jzaun:  How does one remove an entire directory from CVS>
josef:  cvs remove * ?
perdig:  Well, I can understand some spanish
perdig:  No...
perdig:  You must remove all the files from the directory
perdig:  And then use cvs remove dirname
jzaun:  p: If you don't remove the files first?
perdig:  It won't work I think
josef:  p: OK, let's use the date format: ISO format (e.g. in US) is 2000-12-29, whereas German format is 29.12.2000. Thus, "134555676--1073763300-1087511280" becomes something like "1088093296$3-1088092256$2--1073763300$1".
perdig:  What is $3-, $2- and $1- ?
josef:  It indicates the position of the arguments. Sorry, type, it must be: "144627536$3.144864936$2.1836017711$1"
perdig:  Oh, I get it
josef:  man gettext I think (don't have man pages installed).
oberon:  info gettext is probably a more informative choice.
josef:  ln -s info man :-)
perdig:  Ok
oberon:  Hehe
List of players:
-- Highlander
-- josef
-- jzaun
-- oberon
-- perdig
perdig:  I've added all the *.c files in src/frontend/gtk to the POTFILES.in file in the po subdir
perdig:  And added pt_BR to the ALL_LINGUAS= part in configure.in
perdig:  Is this right?
perdig:  This way I'm going to translate ggz-old and ggz-gtk... :)
josef:  I hope so.
josef:  Probably you ask Brian, he's showed it to me.
jzaun:  I'm about to make a big commit...
oberon:  p: That should be fine, although I'm not sure if the current i18n setup in the Makefiles will work for the src/frontend directory.
jzaun:  gonna change the configure.in a little
oberon:  p: There's one way to find out whether it'll work or not, though.... :)
perdig:  I've changed only the ALL_LINGUAS="de" to ALL_LINGUAS="de pt_BR"
perdig:  Well, KBabel shows me 217 unstralated strings... I'll start w/ it.... it shouldn't be lost work anyway...
perdig:  I'll just skip the ggz-old for now
josef:  I think that this has been my work in the old days...
jzaun:  ok.. i've commited the new grubby code and modifications to configure.in to support it.
oberon:  I forgot... Is POTFILES.in generated from something or is it supposed to be maintained by hand?
jzaun:  anyone want to try a "cvs update -d" you'll nee to do a ./autogen.sh again
jzaun:  .in are by had I beleave
perdig:  I think it is supposed to be maintained by hand
josef:  What about the "everybody has to kneel down" message? Is it still present?
jzaun:  nope...
jzaun:  I don't think so
perdig:  ??
oberon:  Ok... Listing the new client files in there should work, but you'll get message catalogs with a huge number of translatable strings if all the frontends start using the top-level po directory.
jzaun:  p: When grubby was first written he would anounce himself to the room when started
jzaun:  o: Is that good or bad?
oberon:  I don't know if there's anyway we can break-down the i18n stuff so that each front-end and game client maintains its own po/ directory and message catalogs.
josef:  All KDE programs have their own installation place for the .mo files. It is in $kde_datadir/share/locale/l10n/LC_MESSAGES.
perdig:  Maybe adding a po/ directory for each frontend directroy
oberon:  j: For now it's okay... later on as more front-ends and game clients are i18n'd, it could turn into a mess.
jzaun:  o: I'l look into it... though i'm not the il8n expert here... you are :-)
perdig:  Ops, I've found a problem.... my laptop doesn't support all the portugues special characters (in fact, I haven't setted it up yet)... but I think it's better then nothing
jzaun:  What characters?
josef:  Like the o with the ~ ?
oberon:  That's scary. ;-) It's been so long since I've messed with the i18n stuff that the knowledged I had was swapped out of my brain's RAM. ;-)
perdig:  Yeah, like that
jzaun:  p: do the special characters display properly within GGZ?
jzaun:  They should is the font supports them :-)
josef:  Chinese would have a problem here...
jzaun:  as it does (015730627545f the time...
jzaun:  but we should fiz it :-)
jzaun:  It would be nice if the xtext widget supported pango in GTK2.0
jzaun:  brb
perdig:  Well, I'll do it without this special characters... later I can add them
jzaun:  Should I have Pizza or Steak for dinner... Steak I must cook, Pizza I can order out...
perdig:  Pizza is always better
josef:  Become a cook. Are you living on your own? Then it doesn't hurt anyone ;-)
jzaun:  1/1 Oberon: you deside what I eat tonight...
oberon:  Pizza... er, no... Steak! ... no, wait... Pizza! :)
jzaun:  Pizza it is... be back in 5.. gonna go order it.
jzaun:  Ordered...
josef:  Hm, hungy... I've fetched some meat.
jzaun:  Hope you know what your did Oberon :-)
jzaun:  Anyone get the update and try out grubby?
oberon:  ... I just caused you to spend $$$? ;)
jzaun:  yup 10 bucks to be exact
josef:  I'll try grubby tomorrow, because I have to checkout freshly.
jzaun:  shouldn't have to... a cvs update -d should take care of it
perdig:  getting the update now
oberon:  Hmm.... conflict on game_clients/hastings/Makefile. I don't think generated Makefiles should really be in cvs.
josef:  my fault - I'll remove it
jzaun:  I just did a fresh checkout and build... all looks ok on this end
perdig:  Ok, I have some rough translation... will take a look on how it looks later
oberon:  How do I get grubby to join the current room?
jzaun:  ahh
jzaun:  2 ways...
jzaun:  edit ~/.ggz/grubby.rc and add a section called [GRUBBYSETTINGS] and a item AUTOJOIN = 0
jzaun:  or
jzaun:   /msg <grubby name> goto 0
jzaun:  though you have to setup the config for the second way to work...
jzaun:  here is what you should do:
Kurgan enters the room.
oberon:  got iot
jzaun:  :-)
oberon:  s/iot/it
josef:  hello Kurgan
Kurgan:  Hey.. I'm working!!! Yah :-)
oberon:  Kurgan, have you seen brentmh?
oberon:  Kurgan have you seen jzaun
josef:  Is it right if I type: cvs remove Makefile? Because it says: cvs server: Up-to-date check failed for `Makefile'
perdig:  It should be right
oberon:  There's a newer version in the repository.
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
josef:  So I have to co first
jzaun:  kurgan my name is Justin
oberon:  cvs update Makefile; cvs remove -f Makefile; cvs commit Makefile
oberon:  :-)
perdig:  I think you must remove the file in your computer before using a cvs remove
oberon:  Kurgan have you seen Justin
oberon:  Kurgan have you seen jzaun
josef:  cvs server: conflict: removed Makefile was modified by second party <= is what I get. How to cancel the old remove command?
josef:  In SQL, this would be a ROLLBACK.
perdig:  Hey, I liked that new configure output
Kurgan:  I think you have to do a CVS commit... you can't cancel a CVS command as far as I knokw
oberon:  jz: The #debian channel on the openprojects IRC network has a bot called apt that seems rather sophisitcated. I wonder if the code from something like that could be adapted to make grubby more tolerant of various punctuation and word order?
Kurgan:  Thanks.. I like it too
jzaun:  o: I'll have to ask if I can take a look at the code
oberon:  Umm.... Who took control of my bot and how?
Kurgan:  no one took control of me... I'm alive :-P
perdig:  These bots of nowadays...
jzaun:  its a little undocumented command... nothing harmfull, but fun :-)
jzaun:  Kurgan say Hello Oberon
Kurgan:  Hello Oberon
oberon:  Does the save memory command save stuff to ~/.ggz/grubby.rc?
jzaun:  yes
oberon:  cool
jzaun:  its autosaves realtime too...
jzaun:  it should *never* loose its memory before, like the old version did
jzaun:  it uses ggzcore conf functions, the file is readable.
oberon:  Hmm.... Kurgan knows about -1 people.
jzaun:  There is a GRUBBYSETTINGS section that you can add, but you must add it by hand for now. I'll be writeing a little configureation application for him.
jzaun:  thats the one little bug I can't seem to find away around...
josef:  Stuff for me to do too.
perdig:  I can't get mine grubby to work... :(
perdig:  What's the command?
perdig:  ./grubby -h jzaun.com -p 5688 -n perdig-bot -o perdig ?
jzaun:  p: edit ~/.ggz/grubby.rc
jzaun:  ahh ok...
Kurgan:  I've been instructed to log this room to file. This notice is to allow anyone not wishing to be logged to leave this room.
jzaun:  type /msg perdig-bot goto 0
Kurgan:  I've been instructed to log this room to file. This notice is to allow anyone not wishing to be logged to leave this room.
jzaun:  having fun Oberon??
Kurgan:  The logs I'm writing now will be held indefinitely and may be brought out at any time to embarass you in front of friends and loved ones, so watch what you say. Have a nice day. ;-)
oberon:  jz: Yes, lots of fun. :)
jzaun:  hehe... I've been loging all night.... I can do the same thing you know
jzaun:  brb - getting my Pizza
josef:  my logging is still active too...
oberon:  I turned mine off. I just wanted to see the HTML output.
josef:  HTML?
oberon:  Yea, grubby can write its log in HTML format.
josef:  That's interesting. The KGGZ logs are in HTML too. Is the grubby output style configurable?
oberon:  no
josef:  So, this is left to do.
jzaun:  picky pick... styles....
josef:  Like kind of using the colors defined in ggz.rc for the Xtext widget
jzaun:  nope... just B&W...
jzaun:  Anyone know when SF is going to fix the mailing list?
josef:  What is broken?
oberon:  I've been getting some messages over the last couple of days. Havent seen any cvs messages, though.
jzaun:  nothing I've commited in the last 2 weeks shows up, and anything I send to it doesn't show up.
jzaun:  I've sent 2-3 messages, and haven't gotten them...
josef:  I do only know their ssh interface is still buggy, and the statistics are wrong.
oberon:  Are you still getting other people's messages?
jzaun:  yes, but not sure if it is all of them or not.
jzaun:  ssh hasn't been buggy for me at all...
jzaun:  Pizza is tasty... anyone want a slice?
josef:  me - send it over ;)
oberon:  Can you FedEx it? :)
josef:  Btw. http://mindx.sourceforge.net/kggzlog.html is my log output.
perdig:  My computer just went crazy... I think the memory was exhausted... justin, do you think that the grubby may have caused it?
jzaun:  Sure... the mold is free for FedEx deliveries :-)
jzaun:  Doubt it...
jzaun:  not much is stored in memmory.
perdig:  So it was some bug on kde
Kurgan:  There can be only one.
josef:  Using karchiveur? This causes trouble sometimes.
perdig:  No... it must have been w/ kmail... as it was my only KDE application running
perdig:  (Besides KDesktop... and KLicq)
perdig:  and kicker, etc...
josef:  Submit a bug report with highest priority
perdig:  But I don't know what was the bug... it just happened... and when I was thinking about resetting my computer, it returned to normal
jzaun:  KDE2?
perdig:  Yep
josef:  One silly thing with kmail: Try to send a message which has a plus-plus-plus ATH0 AT&T command in the subject line, and watch your modem going down...
jzaun:  hehe... What the hell would cause that???
perdig:  That's weird
josef:  Never tried this sequence in kggz - if I disconnect, that's the string.
perdig:  It must be some kind of a easter egg... :)
josef:  Test: +++ATH0
oberon:  plus-plus-plus puts AT-command modems into command mode.
jzaun:  Still here?
josef:  no, it works for GGZ
jzaun:  +++ATH0
oberon:  ATH0 then tells the modem to hangup. :)
perdig:  +++ATH0 (now I must test it too)
jzaun:  Well... ain't that a bitch
Highlander:  jzaun, please watch your language.
perdig leaves the room.
perdig enters the room.
jzaun:  Don't do that anymore!!!
josef:  This has been around 2 weeks ago: My modem received SIGHUP's and I didn't know where the source was.
jzaun:  I wonder....
oberon:  Hmm... the gtk clients been pausing a lot on me.
perdig:  What happened?
jzaun:  head over to IRC and join a popular channel.... Bet you could piss off alot of people real quick
jzaun:  My modem went off hook and diald out...
perdig:  Cool... :)
perdig:  But why mine didn't?
oberon:  It seems like the client is getting hung waiting for network traffic or something and the GUI refresh doesn't happen on expose events.
jzaun:  oberon: Was was getting a full cvs checkout earlier tongiht... and my modem just dissconnected at the pluss pluss stuff
oberon:  heh
jzaun:  o: ggzcore isn't threaded yet... so yes that is possible
oberon:  Doesn't the PPP protocol compress or encode the datastream, or does it send packet data in the clear?
jzaun:  in the clear it looks like :-(
oberon:  eww
josef:  Command data is always uncompressed IMO
perdig:  Why my modem doesn't disconnect? I want to disconnect too... :)
jzaun:  perdig, join IRC and enter the #sex channel.... trype the pluss pluss stuff in there s frew times :-)
josef:  Use kmail - with the logout guarantee(tm)
jzaun:  josef: does it happen on incomeing mail too?
perdig:  brb
oberon:  I seem to recall there may be a setting on some modems that tells the modem to ignore plus-plus-plus and use a break signal on the serial line to switch into command mode instead. It's been so long since I've played around with AT commands and modem register settings that I can't be certain, though.
josef:  No, I had only problems with SMTP, not POP3.
jzaun:  that would be a hell of a little problem if it worked over pop3
perdig:  Didn't work under KSirc... :(
perdig:  Let me try it w/ kmail
josef:  Ooops... my players QList list doesn't update if someone leaves. There are 3 perdigs now.
jzaun:  thats not good....
perdig:  it doesn't work... damm... :(
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun:  There should be 3 of me now :-)
josef:  no, 4
List of players:
-- Highlander
-- Kurgan
-- josef
-- jzaun
-- oberon
-- perdig
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun leaves the room.
jzaun enters the room.
jzaun:  and now?
josef:  But /who is correct
perdig:  /who
josef:  Theoretically, you could leave and join about 2 billion times
josef:  Then, Qt is breaking
perdig:  It doesn't work on the old client
perdig leaves the room.
jzaun:  we could see how good the Qlist is with lots and lots of entries :-)
josef:  I'll fix it next time, so you won't have enuff time to fill it though
perdig enters the room.
perdig:  Ahh, back to the new client
jzaun:  So any Grubby requests?
oberon:  Is there any code in ggzcore to support game clients yet or are game clients on their own?
jzaun:  o: Ya mean lauching game clients? or codeing game clients?
oberon:  Coding
josef:  Grubby cannot be i18n'd as long as he is server-based :(
jzaun:  not yet... that i'm arware of
oberon:  okay... What about server game modules?
jzaun:  not yet either... we are getting ggzcore of the FE in 0.0.4
jzaun:  0.0.5 will have the server rewrite and hopfully the game module libs
oberon:  That's what I needed to know.
* oberon is thinking about creating a Hearts server & client.
* josef would appreciate a hearts game
jzaun:  I haven't played that is a long time... would be fun
perdig:  But game modules can use some ggz functions... there are some ggz.[ch] files to handle the ggz server and clients can use ggzcore confio files
perdig:  Hearts is great
oberon:  I'm thinking about doing something really evil with the Hearts game, though.... :)
perdig:  Evil?
oberon:  I'm thinking of not using C for it.
perdig:  That's evil
jzaun:  hehehe :-)
jzaun:  perl?
josef:  Perl? Tcl/Tk?
perdig:  Are you going to write it under what? Perl? Python?
josef:  Or QBasic? :-)
perdig:  Haskell?
josef:  LOGO
perdig:  C#
oberon:  It gets better.... I was thinking about coding the server in Ada 95 using as many GoF patterns as are appropriate and building the client in Java using AWT.
jzaun:  Java?
josef:  Is ada95 compiled or interpreted?
oberon:  If I can get Java to open a Unix domain socket, I should be able to bootstrap a Hearts client in Java from the ggz client using a shell script or two.
oberon:  compiled
oberon:  Although I think there's a Ada 95 -> JVM compiler or two out there.
perdig:  ada95 can open a unix socket? And how about using a C library?
josef:  Can Java applications be used as applets too?
oberon:  You can write bindings to C functions in Ada.
jzaun:  Well folk, I think I'm gonna head off for the night... Highlander will continue logging and I'll catch up tomarrow on what I missed.
perdig:  The binary file... it doesn't need any libada stuff, does it?
perdig:  See ya jzaun
jzaun:  Have a G'Night everyone
josef:  night
jzaun leaves the room.
oberon:  josef: It depends... If the application needs to do things like write to the local disk or talk to multiple servers, then no. An applet is limited in what it can do for security reasons.
josef:  Because as an applet I could use it within the embedded khtml part of KGGZ :-)
oberon:  p: Yes, there's a runtime library. In the case of the GNAT compiler (the GNU Ada compiler), it's libgnat.
josef:  I've never seen any Ada code. How does it look like?
perdig:  o: But can it statically linked?
perdig:  Neither do I...
perdig:  The only thing I know about Ada is that it is very-very-very safe
perdig:  Whatever "safe" may means
oberon:  j: Hmm... It's a bit like Pascal on steroids.
oberon:  o: Static or dynamic. On my system I have a dynamic libgnat.
perdig:  Cause I was thinking about distributing it... not many people have libgnat... it would be great if you provived a static version as well
oberon:  It's a very strongly typed language with many compiler checks. A lot of the bad code that C lets you get away with require special effort to pull off in Ada.
perdig:  specially cause I really like hearts
oberon:  Well, I haven't made up my mind on anything yet, so this is all subject to change. I just started thinking about it over the x-mas weekend.
josef:  I think it is bad that the source of old games isn'r distributed by the companies. I wanted to have the Settlers code from Blue Byte, but they refused.
oberon:  There's also tasking built into the language, which could be very beneficial to a multi-tasking server or client.
perdig:  We should have a lot of games really soon... we already have 7... but I think there are at least 5 games in the works / planning stage
josef:  The more games arise, the less will make it into CVS, because of their size.
oberon:  Does anyone know if the Unix domain socket that the ggz server creates when it launches a table can be opened as a regular file by the game server, or does it need a special system call to open?
perdig:  It is open w/ a connect call
josef:  A socket is like a FIFO, you handle it with an int value and can then read, and in most cases write on it.
perdig:  If it can be opened as a regular file I don't know
oberon:  Wait a minute, what am I thinking? I was planning on the server being in Ada, so this isn't a problem. I'm a bit concerned about Java's ability to open a domain socket from the ggz client, though. Does the client also use a domain socket to communicate with the game client?
perdig:  Yep
perdig:  The same way the server does
josef:  like /tmp/hastings.1667593325
oberon:  Hmm... okay. Rather than traversing the JDK docs, I think I'll search deja.com for the keywords "Java" and "domain socket". :)
perdig:  Well, I think I'm going now... it's already 2:00 am here and I'm starting to get sleepy
josef:  localtime: 5:00
oberon:  Eww... domain sockets aren't directly supported under Java because they're non-portable (to certain OSes from Redmond).
oberon:  Good night, perdig!
Temperature: 68.0F, 20.0C, 16.0R -253.1K
josef:  local temperature: 68.0F, 20.0C, 16.0R -253.1K
perdig:  josef, you logged on at 2:00 ?
josef:  g'night
oberon:  local time: 11:08pm
josef:  what? yes, 2:08
oberon:  local temperature: 23.0F, -5.0C.
Temperature: 23.0F, -5.0C, -4.0R -278.1K
perdig:  wow... that's the problem w/ timezones
perdig:  Well, see ya
josef:  -278.1K -4.0R :-)
perdig leaves the room.
oberon:  j: It's 68F over there? You're in Germany, correct? Don't you have winter there?? :)
josef:  It is in my room. By the while, we did not have snow until December 25, it was really warm those days.
oberon:  ah... In that case, my local temperature in 74F. ;)
Temperature: 74.0F, 23.3C, 18.7R -249.8K
josef:  which is 23.3 C
oberon:  Wow, you're lucky. My area has been getting hit with one big snow storm after another. We've had something like 60 or 70 inches of snow in the last two months.
josef:  Where is this area?
oberon:  It's been really cold, too. Today the high temperatures reached the 20s (Fahrenheit) for the first time in a few days. It actually felt reasonably comfortable after the sub-zero temperatures we've had.
oberon:  Western side of Michigan, USA...On Lake Michigan. The town I'm living in has actually been generally warmer than farther inland due to the lake. :)
oberon:  Of course, with the lake comes lake-effect snow, which has only served to enhance the already snow-laden storms we've had.
josef:  My goodness, I whish we had such a winter. Isn't there a global winter exchange company?
oberon:  Hehe... I wish. I'd gladly exchange this stuff we've been getting... No ms, por favor. ;)
josef:  ms?
oberon:  People have been saying this has been the worst winter in 20+ years.
oberon:  Sorry... I threw in a little Spanish there. "No more, please."
josef:  ok
josef:  Do you speak spanish fluently?
oberon:  No. I had two years of Spanish in high school and can barely remember any of it, although sometimes I surprise myself when reading it or attempting to construct simple sentences. Generally, though, I'd say that I know German a bit better than Spanish, which isn't saying much. (I'm still struggling with any German text I come across.)
josef:  A friend of mine is studying international relationships, and is learning Japanese and Arabic, and French (the university is German-French).
oberon:  Wow... All at the same time? Talk about linguistic overload. ;)
oberon:  Watashi wa Brian desu.
oberon:  That's about the extent of my Japanese knowledge.
josef:  Yeah, he belongs to the type of persons who can speak many languages without interfering. Of course I don't need to tell about his English, Russian and Latin abilities :-) Too bad he's now living in Cologne
oberon:  I'm envious. I wish I could learn many languages like that.
josef:  Me too.
josef:  But he can't C, C++, Perl, PHP, Pascal, Basic, ... *ROTFL*
oberon:  hehe...
josef:  Are you a student too?
oberon:  No, I graduated from college a couple of years ago. I'm working as a software developer / consultant now.
josef:  What's your job then?
oberon:  I develop web applications.
josef:  Using Java?
oberon:  I wish. No, I'm using Micro$oft technologies (namely ASP)...
oberon:  If I were the client, I'd be using anything but M$ tech, but I'm not the client. ;-(
josef:  asp2php is a solution. Already tasted?
oberon:  I've never heard of that. Is it any good?
josef:  Well, our NT/2000 customers use ASP+Access. If migrating to Unix/Linux, I recommend them this tool, and it seems to work. But I've not tested it on my own yet. I try to keep away from our Windoze machines.
oberon:  Interesting... although I don't think there's any chance of convincing the client to migrate. Anyway, I'll be out of there within 3 months and on to the next assignment...
josef:  ?? new job?
oberon:  No, new assignment. I work as a contractor. My employer loans me out to clients to design and implement solutions, and when the job is done I move on to the next assignment.
josef:  That's what people call consultant then.
oberon:  Well, I think there's a slight difference between consultant and contractor, although I'm not exactly clear on what that difference is. ;)
josef:  I am happy with my job, and it is only around 14 hrs/week, among my courses I take at the university.
oberon:  What do you do and what is your major area of study>
josef:  Job: Mail server admin, Config server programming; studies: Dipl-Inf (approx CS-MSc)
oberon:  How many years have you been studying thus far?
josef:  Years? Only 3 months by now.
oberon:  Ah, so you still have a long road in front of you. ;)
josef:  Yes. And now, I have a long sleep in front of me.
oberon:  Heh... As do I.
oberon:  Good night.
josef:  G'night, and meet you again here in x*7 days.
Kurgan leaves the room.
oberon:  See you later.
Logging Out
josef has quit the GGZ.

Josef Spillner, December 2000
The MindX Open Source Project